Ninjas want better buff!

[Fenulia]

I meant that while cloaked, we can sort of accomplish the "something's missing, but there was no indication". Not quite the same as Palm, I agree.

I'd still like to see Ninjas and Footies get some kind of lock picking ability. Why should locked doors only be breakable? Smacks of bias.

[Whim]

Originally Posted by grimm

Sure more buffs for warlocks. Yay and only us posting on this forum. Srsly let's close this thread. Nobody cares bout ninjas really.

Really?

Sheesh.

[grimm]

Originally Posted by Whim

Really?

Sheesh.

wow.....suddenly there was a stream of light warming up my pale face! Maybe all hope's not lost hey?
________
Territory

[Fenulia]

I'm kind of extremely busy IRL these next few weeks, so can only provide input every other day, but if Whim's willing to thrash out something with us, I'd be more than happy to put in the hours(when I'm available. The days I am are beyond my control).

[Fenulia]

Wow, this thread died without me? Or because of me?

Anyways, regarding the individual subclasses:

Meijin: Used to have nothing, now one of the best(Half NR works on everything, right?)
Shisou: Antei of Formation, but for agility, and better up/down ratio. With the change to Hakanai Shouten, this gets ridiculous pretty quickly. Only the cost keeps it in check(barely).
Mahoutsukai: Useful vs anyone relying on buffs. But given how long fights last these days, even with battle-lock, someone could still step out long enough to rebuff and get back in the fight before the prevention is up.
Mist Warrior: I shouldn't even have to mention why this is crappy. Upgraded Speedwalk !worth unique skill slot.
Ijiwaru Joufu: Like Shisou, but suckier. Honestly, the last time I saw one of these, it was Basara, half a decade ago. At 5 seconds of intense pleasure(or pain), with some 20 minutes of prevention, it's no wonder he stopped playing(or changed name/class).

Summary: Unka to be spread among all the subs. Amassed Reflexes, I see as more suited for being a general buff for all(no idea what to give Shisou in replacement). Ijiwaru: Needs total overhaul. Mist Warrior: Something other than CSS would be nice.

[Syveril]

Originally Posted by Fenulia

Wow, this thread died without me? Or because of me?

Anyways, regarding the individual subclasses:

Meijin: Used to have nothing, now one of the best(Half NR works on everything, right?)

It's full NR. It's one of the best for pk, the only offensive subclass ability.

Originally Posted by Fenulia

Shisou: Antei of Formation, but for agility, and better up/down ratio. With the change to Hakanai Shouten, this gets ridiculous pretty quickly. Only the cost keeps it in check(barely).

Here, you appear to be talking out of your ass.
1. The cost is prohibitive for anything outside of pk.
2. We don't use hakanai shouten that much. We're prevented 21 minutes at a time from whispering wind.
3. With 320 base wisdom (yes, I stoned that shiz), I'm pulling maybe an extra 15-20 dexterity from antei of hakanai shouten. That's hardly "gets ridiculous pretty quickly".

Amassed is an agility boost up slightly less than half the time if you're willing to burn the endurance. It's hardly a game-breaking amount of agility since it's tied to wisdom. If it were tied to dexterity, I'd be impressed. It's not.

Originally Posted by Fenulia

Mahoutsukai: Useful vs anyone relying on buffs. But given how long fights last these days, even with battle-lock, someone could still step out long enough to rebuff and get back in the fight before the prevention is up.

This was good even before the battle locks. If someone can step out long enough to rebuff, either you're dealing with multiple opponents or you've messed up.

Originally Posted by Fenulia

Mist Warrior: I shouldn't even have to mention why this is crappy. Upgraded Speedwalk !worth unique skill slot.

The mist thing is a toy. If it were for a class without regional deception (like warlock), it'd be better, but I've seen one of the best players using this ability, and I'll agree that it appears to be more entertaining than useful. Worth pointing out is that mist warriors, like shisou, have access to unka. Unka isn't huge, especially with the ubiquity of battle locks, but it's still something.

Originally Posted by Fenulia

Ijiwaru Joufu: Like Shisou, but suckier. Honestly, the last time I saw one of these, it was Basara, half a decade ago. At 5 seconds of intense pleasure(or pain), with some 20 minutes of prevention, it's no wonder he stopped playing(or changed name/class).

I don't think he quite just because his subclass sucked. That's what changing subclasses is for. I'll agree that this subclass is made of tragic.

Originally Posted by Fenulia

Summary: Unka to be spread among all the subs. Amassed Reflexes, I see as more suited for being a general buff for all(no idea what to give Shisou in replacement). Ijiwaru: Needs total overhaul. Mist Warrior: Something other than CSS would be nice.

Given your recommendations, it doesn't make any sense that you haven't gone Shisou. Seriously, I don't get it. Your ability sucks, you think amassed is a godsend, try it for yourself.

I don't think unka being spread among the subclasses is a great answer, but blurred movement really needs to stop sucking so bad. It has a flat 50% failure rate, which is -terrible- on a class with vanish.

I think we have to remember that most classes don't have fleshed out subclasses. Monk subclasses, for example, are in worse shape. Suggestions are helpful for future reference, perhaps, but I think best brought up in the context of a review, as I doubt either dev would consider fixing up subclasses as a high priority.

I don't remember N ever doing a substantial subclass overhaul; other things have always come up and there have been piecemeal fixes at most. So my guess is that he isn't directing his focus in this area yet. I personally consider overall class fixes and balance more pressing than subclass issues.

tl;dr version - It's 3 sun stones, cough it up.

[Fenulia]

*shrug* The agility thing only really gets me because it seems like unseen motion and regional both rely on agility(and not on dexterity).

The last time he "overhauled" subclasses was to brag that every subclass had a unique ability(even if many of those who had unique abilities before then were starting to show just how dated their designs were, eg. Ijiwaru and Mist).

[Syveril]

Originally Posted by Fenulia

*shrug* The agility thing only really gets me because it seems like unseen motion and regional both rely on agility(and not on dexterity).

By the time you're a major remort, your unseen motion is 100%. The extra agility is irrelevant for that purpose. Regional deception has a very large int/wis component, and while I do use amassed for spelling up with regional deception, the difference is 6%. The actual benefit is small. Measurable, and I like the feel, but it's not incredible.

I'm not really sure why regional deception is so inferor to stealth and hunter's stealth, whatever it's called. (hunter's versions of the same ability as other classes offends me the point where I can't be bothered to look them up.)

[Fenulia]

When I started out, Ninjas looked like what would happen if you mashed together Monks and Footpads(and gave them the weaker versions of the parent classes' skills). Now it seems like Hunters are going the same route, but stronger rather than weaker. Of course, it also helps their case that they have a ridiculously large list of buffs(taking the better part of half a minute to spell-up completely).

[Gideous]

I would forward this to Whim and/or Nijlo. Some good ideas in here that might get some attention.