The problem with crafted items
 

Is that any major remort can use them regardless of their power level. This makes it possible for a very low rank to, in actuality, be very big and do stupid levels of damage. I've seen a 30k rank running around with 50k hps and doing above 10k a round.

How it might be fixed:

Why not make a "rank requirement" for each piece, based on its power level. For example:

<Crafted> Crazy Sword of Killing Things
Rank Cost: 35k

<Crafted> Mediocre Sword of Killing Things
Rank Cost: 15k

So, to use both weapons, you need a rank of at least 50k (the two above rank costs combined). Could also introduce the necessity to pick which crafts are most useful to you, based on the rank you've accumulated.

In any case, I kinda feel like they should have restrictions put on them in some way, even if some of the higher end eq is difficult to craft.

i kinda like the idea of it being able to use no matter your rank.

It gives the smaller players to catchup with the insanely big players.

Well if you compared a higher rank player with a lower rank player with both same crafted eq, definately a higher rank will still win. Thus, there's still the balance there.

If a small player can mange to craft better gear than a bigger rank, i think he deserves to be that buffed.
________
Ford model a (1927) specifications

/Agree with Izzral. While no one likes getting beat up by someone smaller than them or having them run faster- it helps the little people grow up quicker. Everyone has the same chance to wear crafted.

Bihzad, I wonder if you actually have a concept of just how hard it is to craft one of these so called OP items of craft? By hard I mean how much time and effort has to be placed into leveling craft abilities, how much time and effort a player has to put in running shit GPM areas to run materials, how many fails each one goes through trying to level himself?

No son you have no clue, cause if you did and had actually done it then you would not be so quick to seek 'more' restrictions on players.

Now I know you are going to come right back at me and say people do not need to go through all this to wear craft and that is true they just come to people like me and buy it, but that is an economic issue and not a crafting issue and so does not call for restrictions on crafting and of course you can not restrict free trade either... so back in your box with you and cry me a river.,

Serenity,

It was just a suggestion. Besides, I don't think the people I see running around with full sets of powerful crafted eq are newbs who are catching up, I think they're either alts or friends of bigger players, which doesn't really do much for newbs joining, who then use the pk system to target other people based on their rank, and get thoroughly beat up with no chance of winning. Anyway, you have much more experience with the mud than I do, so any "constructive" criticism of my thought process is welcome, but I suppose "dickish" criticism works too.

Not sure I mentioned anything about noobs and the like so please address that to those who did and while at it insults will lead to one outcome!

Now back to the issue, I get a little sick of just about every post on this forum asking for someone or something to get toned and in many cases by people who have not put in the effort... see initial post.

He was probably just a little offended at the tone of your reply, Serenity. I do notice a trend, intentional or otherwise, towards condescension to suggestions that probably discourages vocal contribution as much as any other factor. If we want discussion and improvement to take effect, we all need to take up the responsibility of fostering an environment which allows it.

To swing back to the original argument, I do agree with you to a point, Bihzad. I think rank would have been a good way of staggering access to the more powerful crafted equipment; however, that was not how it was implemented. Crafted gear has been around for about 2 years now, and over that time I have been extremely reluctant to make any significant changes to the system because of its nature - knowledge, research, and experience all make for a far more effective crafter, and I don't want to upset that foundation too much.

There are a few imbalances in the system (e.g., speed scaling), but I think it has for the most part held up quite well over time. I do want to address the imbalances, but I will not do so as a stopgap measure. Rather, addressing any imbalance will come when I am ready to seriously address crafting with an upgrade.

Either way, I do not plan on adding restrictions to base (current) crafting recipes. These will always be available as "crafted gear for everybody". Rather, I currently plan to implement the following as a focused development unit:
- Enhance crafting dialogues for speed and safety.
- Fix the long-standing bug which homogenizes crafting results on any item with wood as its primary material (thus greatly expanding wood-based options).
- Tweak any stat ratios that need it (probably just speed).
- Revise the material NPC trading system (Gerahf).
- Implement the first set of crafting specializations.
- Implement enhanced (new) crafted gear recipes, based on specializations and new materials. Here, I will explore the possibility of adding rank-limitations to this new gear (only).

Thus, these necessary imbalance and bug fixes will come in the form of a package upgrade (over time, of course), rather than isolated nerfs which people tend to resent. Current gear will remain unchanged, except in the case of tweaked stat ratios (which, as I mentioned, I have refrained from touching for the past two years), and no restrictions will be added. New materials will be a part of the new content as I introduce it (Invasion, Scar, Ramparts, Trials).

Anyway, that's the plan as it stands. I'll talk about it a little more on the 6S blog, when it's time. =) Thanks for your suggestions!

I have nothing against you, but this: wasn't necessary. I was just offering a suggestion from my perspective. I'm more than willing to admit I could be way off.

I just think it's strange that permanent eq has restrictions while crafted eq doesn't. I understand crafted eq can be a pain in the ass to make, but good su eq can be a pain in the ass to find, and su eq is in many cases less powerful than crafted eq, and it has restrictions. Anyway, most people seem to prefer it this way, and that's fine by me. Just wanted to start a discussion.

Ah, Whim caught me in mid-reply. Thanks for the informative response. Much appreciated.

i see what you mean with your comparison with permanent eq and crafted.

Well yes crafted eq has now outweigh permanent SU; but then crafteds fade and permanents don't.

The drawback of having crafted is taking weeks to craft a good item and to have it fade in 70days ish? I think that is a fair trade off.

Plus eq structure has been in the mud forever whereas crafted is new. Both item are in too seperate worlds and should be just compared easily.
________
Bho hash oil

actually...i'm gonna have to disagree with whim's idea on this one =/
i don't see the reason in tweaking the speed stat on items...it's basically the fighter classes equivalent of casters willpower eq...sure you get fighters running around with 20 odd attacks nowadays but they've still gotta have a decent hit/dam to make up it work...what about casters (*cough*warlocks) stacking willpower and knocking their buffs, spell damage and NR up to some really nifty amount??? (gonna start pickign on warlocks now so serenity..just ignore this part! :P) as if it's not bad enough already without buffs, warlocks have a buff that gives them more NR than most fighters would ever have (reign of resist)...dish out 2k over damage per wrinkle on players (with time bending that 2-3 a round)...tank like a tank (obvious pun intended)...and still hit harder than most fighters would!! (i still can't get a grip on this one)...
(ok serenity, you can read now :P) to get the speed scaling right, there's a lot of defense which has to be given up...and from a pk point of view, the stronger defense is always gonna win (yay for willpower/hps or agi/hps eq?)
someone's gonna tell me to stop whining and go warlock soon enough :P

p.s. i still don't understand why it's willpower and not constitution that increases natural resistance =/

This is in regards to crafting for monks ( you guys know that this was gonna come sooner or later )...

The change to warlocks' summons weapons has proven that effect procs can be set for weapons that simulate a particular stat or ability works in regards to the coding. I saw a players with knuckles on their 'gloves' equipment slot and came up with this idea.

At this time, crafted equipment outdamages monk hands which must be empty for their damage potential as well as being able to use some of their ability ( requires empty hand ). Thus, this leaves two slots that would normally up health like 6 or 8k total or int 40 or dam and hit 30 each. You get the idea. What about crafting of 'knuckles' that only level 100 major remort monks can use that proc 'empty hands' all the time like how shadow lance 'always procs' damage types that bypass resistance and invulnerability. Weapon dmg would be the same as the monk's hands as 69d3. However, stat bonuses can be added ( +hit, +dam ) that can bring them closer to everyone else. It doesn't have to be 'as much' as everyone else, just enough to let them be 'in the same ballpark' equipment wise without losing of 'empty' handed abilities.

I and many others have suggested the "monks should get something for their hand slots" thing many times. Doesn't look like it's gonna happen. On the bright side, train vicious fist and you may find you get some sweet results. I think this was Whim's way of giving monk hands a bump.

This is the other thing I don't really understand about craft pieces: why are they not split up like other eq for fighter vs caster classes? I'm sure there is a good reason, please let me know. If they were split up this way, it seems you could just assign the larger +speed buffs to fighter eq and the larger +will buffs to caster eq and strike a balance without toning the speed buffs.

Just say, if speed > 30 (or whatever), then the classes that can use it are fighter classes.
If will > 30 (or whatever), then the classes that can use it are caster classes.

Also, I agree with Argh about con being more of a "nat resist" type statistic. Or maybe the bonus could be split amongst con and will, like learn curve for wis/int.

lolol...and what are warlocks? fighters or casters?? hahahaha!!!

Locks need both speed and will, so we would need to wear both, your idea calls for a choice to be 'forced' on us we are a blended class not one or the other, as Argh so elequently points out above.

Well, it seems warlocks might be a class thrown out of whack by the benefits of crafted eq. That is, they can now wear the most powerful fighter eq (i.e. crafted pieces) without restriction, while they still gain the benefits of also being considered a caster class. So, basically, they are just as powerful as most other fighters, if not more so, in the weapon damage department, but they also get some very nice spells and buffs, making them better, in many ways, than your average fighter class. Anyway, I'm probably off here too and I do enjoy seeing where I'm off, as I'm still a newb but am interested in the dynamics of this game, so please inform.

Also, an easy fix for the above problem mentioned by Argh and Serenity would be to simply restrict the stat possibilities for figher-caster hybrids, since they are supposed to be a mix and not simply an equally powerful form of both fighter and caster, so:

Just say, if speed > 30 (or whatever), then the classes that can use it are fighter classes.
If will > 30 (or whatever), then the classes that can use it are caster classes.

And, if 0 < will < 40, then fighter-caster hybrids can use it.
If 0 < speed < 40, then fighter-caster hybrids can use it.

So there is an upper limit for the hybrids, which is still higher than the restrictions for fighers and casters.

now now...as overpowered as warlocks are, i'm not gonna agree to this :P...what you're basically saying is...as time goes on...and items get stronger...warlocks will gradually get weaker (since they won't be able to use any of the "UPPER TIER" items)...i still say that the problem doesn't lie with crafted eq but the warlock class itself...to me, it makes no sense that warlocks get the best of everything...as much as serenity says that warlocks need speed and willpower, the truth is that they can stack only willpower and be just as strong in pk...every other class will need to have more than 1 stat to even be close...speed/dam eq for fighters in pk means they get beat up very very badly and they'll also need a decent +hit to land their attacks...stacking will/hps on them gives them girly damage...stacking agi/hps helps against certain classes...but yet again your damage is gimped...splitting stats essentially means that you're gonna get less of a certain stat but it has to be done to try and balance your offense and defense...warlocks get big offense and defense from practices and are therefore free to pick whichever stat suits them best without losing out on too much...

The cost of the OPness of a warlock is huge though in both financial terms and plat. The go hand in hand if you don't spend the cash then you can not raise the practices. Then there is the running of the plats, you can not do both run plats and run crafting materia.

nods@serenity...yes i understand that it's not easy to get it up there but the potential of it is there...for example...if any other class had spent the same amount of plat, it still wouldn't get to the level of warlocks...they are very reliant on practices but with the practices, they would beat everybody...it will be somewhere that no other classes can ever reach no matter what...you'll have to admit that you'll beat just about everyone around the same rank as you if you went full willpower/hps eq...

Agreed, I personaly am geared to run with speed eq and Oni Ti, so even Rolex kills poor me right now, but if I was to go to war there would be a huge shift in both race and eq and then yes I sense pain for someone :)

No wonder those ogre warlocks broke through into Ruushi!
________
Live sex

Splitting crafted gear into "fighter" and "caster" gear isn't a practical solution. Casters generally choose to wear gear other than speed, because they need their casting stats to boost their spellups and spells. And what would they do with all those attacks without hit/dam/physical intensification/!dodge/!parry/!NR/impairments/decent weapon dice to back it up? It's fighter classes that can wear 800 speed at a time.

I still think dam/speed gear is out of line. And that's why I'm wearing it. I'm looking forward to Whim nudging down dam/speed gear (at least the +dam portion of it) and boosting hit/dex. I think it's still pretty hard to fit dex/hit onto your gear (does anyone aside from footpads wear dex on purpose? What about hit outside of hit/dam?), so a boost would definitely help that.

well...i wear it for running too...but for pk it's really not that impressive...i usually change into hps gear for it...only reason you don't actually notice it is because of your autoflank skill and your extra flank damage thinghy...not to mention ignore NR...and also damage mitigation from stun...thing is not all classes have those...and as much speed/dam as i stack, a warlock with willpower/hp eq with stupid high NR will still take minimal damage from me!!! really...go try it without ignore NR...and you'll see the problem most fighter classes will have against warlocks...it gets even better with RP eq on both parties...you can really feel the love then...there is basically nothing i can do about it...unless you're gonna tell me to class change...

Well yes class change better than more tones, but then I have always been on the side of improve the weak over tones.

I think I know the craziness of warlocks even better than you. :( But I'm not talking about pk.

Certainly reasonable minds can disagree, but I think that approach can exclude precise corrections.

For example, if one race is has too much damage, how can you adequately compensate other races? Adding damage to all other races disadvantages healing, and changes game balance with respect to classes with healing. Adding health to all other races would be impossible to balance between races/classes with different defensive mechanisms (between damage mitigation vs. avoidance vs. limiting vs. countering). Additionally, greater damage scales indefinitely, whereas health is an absolute quantity. If you try to increase NR on all other races, do you now tone all sources of !NR and 1/2NR? Even if you could balance everything through exhaustive tweaking in the realm of pk, isn't this race still advantaged in running?

And then, why would you go through this ridiculous exercise when one starts with the premise that one race has too much +dam? If that is the problem, it's silly to think that a developer would be unable to simply fix the problem itself rather than redesign the entire game around one race. Simply put, if one race is overpowered, then it should be toned.

I believe this principle applies to all aspects of a game. However, this is not to say I don't recognize some value to avoiding nerfs when practicable-- it's much more annoying to the player to have toys taken away than to start poor and have them slowly added later on. Over the years, I've noticed that Nijlo and now Whim have generally followed this principle. But whenever a true imbalance reveals itself, I'm a firm supporter of the measured and judicious application of the nerfstick.

Whim's Quote
 

I'm glad you quoted Whim there, because I had misread Whim's quote the first time around. It's only on seeing Whim's words quoted that I saw the implication.

Based on the language Whim used, +hit and dexterity don't appear to be slated for boosting on crafted gear, which is what my first impression was. Rather, it seems that Whim has ideas on increasing the usefulness of +hit and dexterity, perhaps focused on the classes that are undervaluing these attributes. And of course, new skills/spells or mechanics (or both) are always exciting. Maybe there will even be some universal mechanics that will help my class value dexterity more highly.

yeah...you probably would :P

now taking into context that warlocks run very well from the get go...they've got high hit/dam from buffs and summoned weapons...lotsa insta attacks...time bending at 100%...high NR/evade/parry...physical intensification...sixth sense (increase melee damage??)...spammables...high speed from spellups...reign of spirit...

yup...i will honestly say that i don't bother very much with +hit or dex...especially dex...only time i bother with +hit is if i can get 2 or more hit for every damage i'm giving up...or if i don't really need any other stats elsewhere (speed hitting breakpoint...but with the new speed rules...hmmmm :P)...now if the new rules about improving hit and dex gets implemented, it would be a lot more interesting if i do say so myself...personally, i've always liked dex as a stat in most games i've played..

@Syveril,
Was not aware we were talking race changes... they are relatively cheap to change race if a tone is implemented, a class on the other hand is now worth a fortune. I would agree in what you say with races and tones, but am still to be swayed on the class side of things.

@Argh,
Time bending at 100%? check tones please its 40% also several other things were toned in the same time period such as none stackable reign of spirit, and weapons and and and... oh and finaly 6th sense by Whims own words does very little for warlocks compared with casters.

yes serenity...it does very little for warlocks as compared to other casters...but it's still a little more than most other classes...unless physical intensification does very little for warlocks as well which i doubt...
warlocks timebending got changed to 40%? really?? i thought it was only the duration that got changed...i've gotta go check it out...last i knew, rolex was still blasting 2-3 wrinkles per round and i doubt he'd be so lucky to be able to pull it off that often with only 40% time bending...i know about non-stackable ROS though...but you gotta admit, being able to stack it was ridiculous...especially when pvping with the +align one...even without stacking, it does a considerable amount of damage...but yeah that's not too much of an issue...oh...plus warlocks get crushing blows!! :P

qolok - time-walker, second 40% (05:55)
koloq - time-walker, third 40% (00:13)

not those!! =/
i'm talking about timebending...